A Ha

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Posts by A Ha

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  583

  What is the purpose of life?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

  because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

  i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

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  A Ha

  ...that I never, ever, would think about beating or punishing a woman unless she was my wife or daughter.

  40% Poe, 60% mentally ill person (not because of this line, but body of work)

  
  
  
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  583

  What is the purpose of life?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

  because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

  i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

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  A Ha

  Mercy is achieved by expense of Justice. In Christianity God's Mercy is achieved through justice. Justice is not put aside to achieve Mercy.
  That's the point of the Ransom view about the Crucifixion. Crucifixion of Christ payed the expense provoked by Mercy

  This defense only works if you redefine "justice" and "mercy" so they don't mean "justice" or "mercy"
  
  
• 
  583

  What is the purpose of life?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

  because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

  i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

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  A Ha

  IMHO the problem if evil must have something related to Infinite Justice. And the Cross of Christ is the needle that seam the entire history of suffering.

  As an aside, I think belief in a god of Infinite Justice and Infinite Mercy is even more of a logical contradiction and probably a stronger argument against such a god than the problem of evil--mostly because it avoids the Mysterious Ways defense. It's like describing God as Perfectly Square and Perfectly Round.
  
  
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  583

  What is the purpose of life?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

  because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

  i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

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  A Ha

  Slim, rest assured that any atheist who spends any time discussing religion on the internet is well acquainted with the Dunning-Kruger effect, but you're misapplying it here. A "mastery" of the subject matter is not required here.

  Let me ask you a direct question: If the Most Perfect Mother keeps her children locked in a closet for years, and I say that behavior is incompatible with being the Most Perfect Mother, is that an example of the DKE? If your answer is "no" then you've misapplied the DKE.
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  583

  What is the purpose of life?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

  because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

  i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

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  A Ha

  Slim - you are correct the maths problem analogy is not a perfect match.

  I wasn't trying to nit-pick your analogy to death, but I think that specific analogy was approaching the subject from a bad angle. My problem isn't with analogies, it's with the point the analogies are trying to support--that there might be some justification for needless suffering that we humans miss due to imperfect knowledge.

  Your answer seems to make sense if we apply it in a very vague way, as you do in your parenting analogy. But I think you're asking this argument to do wayyyyyyy more work than it is able to do. It's like saying "There exists a woman who is the best mother ever to have lived," but we learn that for years she has kept her children locked in closets with rusty buckets to relieve themselves, and are fed only moldy bread crusts. That is not at all congruent with the title of Most Perfect Mother, and we find it impossible to wave it away by saying, "Maybe she has a good reason that we just can't fathom."

  ... given that we may not know everything about the situation, and given the possibility that a supreme being may have greater understanding of the situation than we do, it is at least possible that God is acting both from a position of power and goodness in creating the world and sustaining the world in the way in which he does.

  I think we know enough. A problem for believers is that God's OmniMax properties are not unimportant or secondary properties. It's not as if we think one of the properties of the Most Perfect Mother is she's right-handed, but we see her writing with her left hand and we think their must be some unknown reason she's doing it this time. God isn't rather smart, sort of powerful, and pretty nice--He's the embodiment of those qualities. They are His basic, defining characteristics. The fact that we don't see these fundamental qualities reflected in His creation cannot be dismissed with "Mysterious Ways."

  Actually I was going out of my way not to proof text. That's why I talk about God's inscrutability as a "dominant theme" of the Bible rather than incontrovertible teaching.

  But I think it's what you've done. We have some verses saying God has revealed Himself to mankind and wants a relationship with us, and other verses saying he's not fully comprehensible. You haven't tried to reconcile these verses, you've just ignored the former in favor of the latter.

  Furthermore, I don't think God's inscrutability is a theme of the Bible at all, let alone a dominant one. It only really comes up when believers are asked about contradictions between God's supposed qualities and evidence to the contrary.

  I can't actually think of any scriptures that claim God is perfectly intelligible to humans, but modesty requires I don't rule out the possibility. Do you know of any? What I do know, and I've shown above, is that many parts of the Bible indicate that humans can't hope to fully understand God and why he does things the way he does. So to say that the God of the Bible doesn't exist because we can't account for his actions in terms of goodness ignores a large part of what the Bible has to say about God's inscrutability.

  I think you've set an unreasonably low bar for yourself. God doesn't need to be "perfectly" intelligible or "fully" comprehensible. Again, we're talking about God's defining characteristics. We're not saying the Most Perfect Mother isn't "perfectly" understood because we don't know why she always wears a striped scarf, we're saying her actions are so obviously bad that we can confidently say she's not the Most Perfect Mother.
  

  Actually I consider myself agnostic, tending toward atheist.

  Apologies, I did not know that. Still, I'm not sure it changes my answer. If you were asked what the Christian God was like, I think you'd answer the same way.
  

  ...The human mind, even in a universe without a divine being, is surely not the perfect judge of all that does or can exist. We are living in an age where human reason has been elevated almost to the level of Godlike status. That's why arguments that involve relying on human reason as the arbiter of what can exist go unchallenged. It's the dominant ideology of our time.

  Now I think you've set the bar unreasonably high. We don't need to be "the perfect judge." Again, we're not talking about some minor attribute, we're talking about the defining characteristics of people's concept of God. When it comes to God's omniscience, omnipotence, or omnibenevolence, believers do not say "I can't commit to that because He's inscrutable." If God is "scrutable" enough to be called Omni-whatever, then he's "scrutable" enough that the obvious contradictions between these claims and what we see in the world cannot be waved away.
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  583

  What is the purpose of life?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

  because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

  i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

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  A Ha

  Slim -
  1. No solution exists.
  2. A solution exists but we have not yet, or may never find it.
  It is only husbris, or wishful thinking, that says 1 must be true and 2 cannot be the explanation.
  Unless you know some good reason why 1 must be true and 2 can definitely be discounted.

  A half-dozen reasons jumped out at me while skimming the thread.

  By using analogies like solving a "maths problem," you're mis-characterizing the PoE. PoE isn't "looking for a solution," it's offering an answer. As you say, it's making a claim about a specific conception of God.

  When your response to a logical argument isn't to challenge the validity or soundness of the argument, but to say "there might be a solution that nobody has thought of," you haven't defeated the argument, you've admitted that it's a good argument!

  What is being claimed here is that the inability of humans to find a solution to the problem of evil therefore disproves the existence of the God of the Bible.

  No, this isn't what's being claimed. What's being claimed is that the concept of the omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent God is incompatible with the world we observe. The argument doesn't claim to succeed because of a "lack of a solution;" it is the solution.

  It isn't

  1) no solution exists, or;
  2) maybe there is a solution that we're unaware of.

  It's

  1. The premises of the PoE are both correct and the conclusion follows, or;
  2. One or both of the premises are wrong, or;
  3. The conclusion does not follow from the premises.

  You seem to be attacking the first premise, but to do so you must ignore a main theme of the Bible--that of God's revelation of Himself to mankind.

  If you claim that God is Good then you're admitting that His personality is discernible, at least in part. The PoE proponent also says God's personality is discernible, and that it is either not omniscient, not omnipotent, or not omnibenevolent.

  I no longer believe that the Bible is consistent with itself. So I won't argue that there are parts of the Bible that claim God has revealed himself in various ways, especially Jesus...

  You're proof-texting. If you're going to blatantly ignore scriptures that are inconvenient to you, then the argument is not aimed at you. It's aimed at people who are willing to consider all of the evidence.

  Your position seems blindingly self-serving. I would find it nearly impossible to believe that you are consistent in which scriptures you accept and which you reject. If you were walking down the street and a little child said, "Mister, do you think God is good or evil?" I do not believe you would say, "Dunno. He's inscrutable. Could be Good. Could be Evil." No, I'm certain you would claim God is Good, and would likely use the same scriptures Cofty quoted as evidence.

  
  

  For reference, we can list the PoE as (per wikipedia):

  1. If an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent god exists, then evil does not.
  2. There is evil in the world.
  3. Therefore, an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God does not exist.
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  405

  Origin of Life

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

  as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

  there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

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  A Ha

  I like how he drops his biggest bombshell--the one that he throws out there like it's self-evident, yet would earn him billions of dollars and uncounted awards if he could demonstrate it--then declares his job is done.
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  9

  Cubs clinch division title!

  by JRK in

  1. social
  2. entertainment

  bring on the post season!.

  jk.

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  A Ha

  Post-season meltdown in 3.. 2...

  Actually, I don't mind if they win--it's been so long and they've built a pretty amazing team that will compete for years.

  Just don't become like Red Sox fans.
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  127

  So......Obama IS a US citizen after all?!

  by Black Man in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  april 27th, 201110:06 am etobama releases long-form birth certificateposted by:cnn white house producer shawna shepherd.

  by cnn's alan silverleib.

  washington (cnn) the white house released copies of president barack obama's original long-form birth certificate wednesday, seeking to put an end to persistent rumors that he was not born in theunited states.. "we do not have time for this kind of silliness," obama told reporters at the white house.. obama's long-form birth certificate [pdf].

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  A Ha

  littlerockguy - Obama supporters and the mainstream media uses the term "conspiracy theorists" and "birthers" as buzzwords like the Watchtower Society uses the terms "apostates", which makes sense since both have cult followers.

  OK so please answer a few quick questions:

  • When Trump said, "Why doesn't he show his birth certificate? There's something on that birth certificate that he doesn't like," was he pushing a conspiracy theory?
  • When he said "He's spent millions of dollars trying to get away from this issue. Millions of dollars in legal fees trying to get away from this issue. And I'll tell you what, I brought it up, just routinely, and all of a sudden a lot facts are emerging and I'm starting to wonder myself whether or not he was born in this country," is that promoting a conspiracy theory?
    
  • Does the fact that he never shared what the "lot of facts" were make him a birther?
  • When he said, "He doesn't have a birth certificate, or if he does, there's something on that certificate that is very bad for him. Now, somebody told me -- and I have no idea if this is bad for him or not, but perhaps it would be -- that where it says 'religion,' it might have 'Muslim.' And if you're a Muslim, you don't change your religion, by the way," was that trafficking in conspiracy theories?
  • Does the fact that he never told us who this "somebody" was who told him Obama's problem might be that his birth certificate has an entry for religion and that it's Muslim make him a regular old religious bigot, or a birther bigot?
  • Does the fact that he said, "I have people that have been studying [Obama's birth certificate] and they cannot believe what they're finding ... I would like to have him show his birth certificate, and can I be honest with you, I hope he can. Because if he can't, if he can't, if he wasn't born in this country, which is a real possibility ... then he has pulled one of the great cons in the history of politics," mean he's trafficking in conspiracy theories?
  • Does the fact that he never reveals who these "people" are, or what "they're finding" make him a truther?
  • Does the fact that he said, "His grandmother in Kenya said, 'Oh, no, he was born in Kenya and I was there and I witnessed the birth.' She's on tape. I think that tape's going to be produced fairly soon. Somebody is coming out with a book in two weeks, it will be very interesting," make it a conspiracy theory?
  • Does the fact that he never produced this tape make him a truther?

  Now here things get a little more... conspiratorial. In late April, 2011 Obama produced his long form birth certificate, and Trump said he "believes that President Obama was born in the United States."

  But then, afterward, he made the following statements publically:

  A year later:

  • "He didn't know he was running for president, so he told the truth. The literary agent wrote down what he said ... He said he was born in Kenya and raised in Indonesia ... Now they're saying it was a mistake. Just like his Kenyan grandmother said he was born in Kenya, and she pointed down the road to the hospital, and after people started screaming at her, she said, 'Oh, I mean Hawaii.' Give me a break." Was Trump trafficking in conspiracy theories in repeating and commenting on this fake report?
  • When it came out that this was a fake report, does the fact that Trump didn't correct, recant, or apologize for his remarks mean he's a truther?
  • "A lot of people do not think it was an authentic certificate. ... Many people do not think it was authentic. His mother was not in the hospital. There are many other things that came out. And frankly if you would report it accurately I think you'd probably get better ratings than you're getting." Is it a conspiracy theory to claim "Many [unnamed] people..."?
  • Is implying that the news network he was giving an interview to (CNN) was not reporting "accurately" regarding Obama's birth certificate promoting a conspiracy theory?
  • Via Twitter: "An 'extremely credible source' has called my office and told me that @BarackObama's birth certificate is a fraud." Does this make Trump a truther?
  • Is making his claims via "extremely credible sources," which he doesn't name, make him a conspiracy theorist?

  Now almost two and a half years after Obama released his long form birth certificate, and Trump claimed to accept it, he says:

  • "Was it a birth certificate? You tell me. Some people say that was not his birth certificate. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. I'm saying I don't know. Nobody knows." Is this taking advantage of the substantial portion of the US population who are not intelligent enough to see through conspiracy theory BS? I.... just... don't... know!
  • Does the fact that he doesn't name these "some people" make him a conspiracy theorist?
  • Via Twittter: "How amazing, the State Health Director who verified copies of Obama's 'birth certificate' died in plane crash today. All others lived." Is this implying the woman who died was assassinated, or is he just sharing random thought of the day #1,323,418?

  In a 2014 interview on Irish TV - three years after Obama released his birth certificate:

  • "Well, I don't know -- did he do it? ... Well, a lot of people don't agree with you and a lot of people feel it wasn't a proper certificate."
  • Does the fact that he doesn't name these "lot of people" or explain why we should care about the random thoughts flitting like butterflies through their heads, mean he's trafficking in conspiracy theories?
  • "There are three things that could happen. And one of them did happen. He was perhaps born in Kenya. Very simple, OK? He was perhaps born in this country. But said he was born in Kenya because if you say you were born in Kenya, you got aid and you got into colleges. People were doing that. So perhaps he was born in this country, and that has a very big chance. Or, you know, who knows?" Does this make him a truther?

  Which brings us to 2016, when he said, regarding Obama's country of birth:

  • "Who knows about Obama? ... Who knows, who knows? Who cares right now?... I have my own theory on Obama. Someday I will write a book, I will do another book, and it will do very successfully."
    
    
  
  

  So there you have a bunch of comments he made after 2011... this doesn't even include stuff from when the whole birther movement was at its strongest. And these are only comments from one public figure. As Nancy Pelosi recently said, what Trump has said is nothing compared to what many of the GOP members of the house and senate have said over the years.

  Just buzzwords, huh?
  
  
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  3

  JW HUMOR

  by TerryWalstrom in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  jw humor.

  there are people who bring happiness whenever they enter a room.. jw’s bring joy when they exit.. .

  if you talk to god, you’re praying; if god talks to you, you’re either schizophrenic, the g.b.

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  A Ha

  Two jokes I heard from COs many years ago:

  1. Retelling a complaint from a waitress; "JWs come into town with the 10 Commandments and a $10 bill--and don't break either one." He was trying to say don't be cheapskates regarding tipping when going out to eat after conventions, so I guess that's a good thing.

  2. "The three fastest forms of communication are.. telegraph, television, and tell a sister." At the time I was surprised the CO would tell a "cool" joke, now I'm like "That's sexist!"